Unfinished Business – Charmaine Botha’s one on one coaching call

Unfinished Business – Charmaine Botha’s one on one coaching call

Welcome back to TRI with Coach Parry! We've changed up the format of these podcasts so today we're catching up with Charmaine Botha, one of our Coach Parry Online Training Club members, as Coach Rudolf answers some of her triathlon questions during this coaching call.

During this podcast we find out how Charmaine got into the sport of triathlon and how she managed to come back into it after totally giving up following a DNF. We also find out how she got over her fear of open water swimming.

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Transcription

Brad
Welcome on to this edition of TRI with Coach Parry. My name is Brad Brown. It's awesome to have you with us. And it's been a while since we put a podcast out on this feed and we've got lots to share with you. So today we are joined by our triathlon coach Rudolf Naude, and we are going to be chatting to a member of our Online Training Community, Charmaine Botha, about her build up to 5150, in Bella Bella, that's coming up towards the end of this year. She's going to be going on to do an Ironman 70.3 and the plan is to do the full Ironman South Africa at the end of March next year.

So we're going to be chatting to Charmaine, a little bit about her plan. She's got some unbelievable questions today as well. She's finding a way in the sport. She comes from quite a strong endurance running background, but triathlons, still fairly newish for her. She's got some great questions and I think you're going to learn a lot out of today's podcast. If you do enjoy it, let us know you can pop us an email (support@coachparry.com) and we'd love to get your feedback on this podcast and the changes we've made and they're going to be coming out every second week. So that's the good news and hopefully we can ramp it up to every week.

But that's down the line for now every two weeks. Let's get straight into my chat with Rudolf and Charmaine.

BRAD
Welcome back on to this edition of TRI with Coach Parry. My name is Brad Brown and it's a great pleasure to welcome our triathlon coach Rudolf Naude on to the podcast. Rudolf, welcome back nice to touch base.

RUDOLF
Howzit Brad, thanks for having me back again.

BRAD
This is going to be a slight change from our normal format on our audio podcast for TRI and if you've been listening to what we do and following what we do here at Coach Parry for a while, you would have noticed that on our running podcast, we've been doing a lot of fly on the wall sort of coaching calls. And we want to translate that into the same for our triathlon and cycling podcasts as well. And this is going to be one of them. And there's gonna be a lot more of this to come and we've got one of the members of the Coach Parry Online Training Club on the call with us today as well. We head to the East Rands to catch up with Charmaine Botha. Charmaine, welcome onto the podcast, thanks for joining us.

CHARMAINE
Wonderful, thank you for having me all the way from the East Rand.

BRAD
That's alright, we don't discriminate, we take all sorts here. Charmaine, tell me a little bit about your sort of introduction into triathlon, I know you come from quite a big running background. You've done quite a few sort of big running races, but what's the attraction to triathlon?

CHARMAINE
You know, way, way, way back there was an Energade [***03:46] series, do you remember that? I did that, it was quite fun. Then I did one in Germiston many moons ago, also. And I tried Ironman in 2012, did the 70.3, got a DNF, sold my bike, sold all my cycling gear, I promise you. Got over the fear of open water, and now I've been doing it again for a year or two. So now I'm going all the way. Big or no.

BRAD
That's amazing, Charmaine, I mean, was it East London 70.3 that you DNF'd? I mean, that's a tough one. I mean, Rudolf will attest to that as well. So to bounce back from that where you said I'm gatvol, I've had enough, I'm selling everything and I'm done with the sport. To come back - that takes a massive amount of courage. What's brought you back? Why?

CHARMAINE
No, it's unfinished business. I've got it on my bucket list. I have to do it. So, it's now or never so I'm going full out.

BRAD
And you're no stranger to endurance, either. You've, I mean, from a running point of view, you've held your own on a couple of big runs.

CHARMAINE
Yeah, look I've done Comrades a few times. Also had one or two DNFs believe you not, so I know what it's like to sit on the side. And that bailer bus coming by, that's a horrible name, the bailer bus. Anyway, so yeah, I've been doing Comrades, and I've done a few Midmars, I've done Two Oceans, I've basically done everything. But yes, this Ironman is just calling me so that's why I'm here.

BRAD
Talk to me about the fear of open water swimming. Because that I think a lot of people who get into the sports struggle with. Obviously, it's a big thing. What are you? Are you over it? Are you still scared of open water swimming? And what are you doing to try and get better?

CHARMAINE
Well, look, I think for all the Gautengers it's hard to go swim in the sea. It's not the same as swimming in the dam. It's wide. It's large. It's very intimidating,the big ocean. For my 70.3 we were sitting on the side and my husband says 'yes, Charmaine, I think you should go and stand in the front and just go swim'. That was the biggest mistake I made. Thinking that I can swim with those fast swimmers in the front line. So I tried to swim but I was hyperventilating and I couldn't breathe. I couldn't just swim a normal freestyle.

So eventually, I was starting to backstroke. And if I hear the whistle, it will be the lifeguard saying I'm going totally in the wrong direction. So I managed just to finish the swim which was 1.9 on a backstroke where I think I swim about 3 kilometres maybe. I finished the 90k cycle, I think it was horrible because I kept vomiting all the way from all this sea water that I swallowed. But yeah, after the bike I got pulled over and said I'm allowed to go any further due to time. But since then, I've done a few Midmars and I've overcome the fear of open water. Definitely.

Brad
Yeah, it's weird. I mean, I remember my first open water swim and it's so right you talk about being in Gauteng because there aren't many bodies of water that you can train it. So we do most of our swimming in the gym. And, I was fairly comfortable swimming. I mean, I grew up swimming. So I didn't have that fear of water. But it was weird not having a line on the bottom. When you get into the sea or a dam. I mean, it's things that you don't think of. It's dark, it's not the clean water, although some of the gyms I swum in the water was disgusting and it was probably about as dark as a dam. But I mean, it's little things like that, that you don't realize in open water that you almost need to prepare yourself for it.

Rudolf, in your opinion, what are some of the ways that someone can get over that fear of open water swimming? Is it a case of just getting on the horse and doing it or are there things you can do to prepare yourself?

RUDOLF
Yeah so just basically, the easiest thing to do is practice makes perfect, but as you say it's difficult for us Gautengers to actually go to a body of water to be able to swim in. But, Charmaine, if you and a few of your mates, if you go to the gym and swim three in a lane, for a few 25 metres just to get that feeling of not being able to swim in your own little comfort zone and someone's hitting you, kicking you, you can't do your strokes perfectly, that will really help you a lot with that. There's people going to be around me. So I'm not in my little comfort zone, I need to adjust my stroke, I can't breathe normally like used to, I need to breathe up a bit more - just to be able to adapt.

And I think also your biggest problem with east London 70.3 is your husband telling you to start in the front. So I think if you started more towards the back, then you would have been fine. But also now with the wave starts going on. It's normlly just like one big line of athletes going so even now you can start more towards the front, and you'll be fine. Just because Ironman has changed and they have made it a wave start.

BRAD
Yeah, yeah, that would make a big difference. Charmaine, what are some of the things, let me flick it over to you, what are some of the things that you need help with, that you're struggling with right now?

CHARMAINE
Well, you know, a few months ago, I bought myself a new Garmin. But the problem with a new Garmin is that it gives you a lot of specs. So I never knew anything about SWOLF or zones, or all these things. And now that I'm getting all this data from my swims and my runs and my cycles, now I suddenly realize that there's a lot of things that I need to make better, to work on. I'm just used to running, running is running.

And this triathlon is something different, but I'm loving it. But like with the swim, apparently there's a SWOLF, and my SWOLF is too high, I should get it lower to increase the length of my stroke. So currently, it's 116, it's supposed to be at least 1.5 metres 1.6 metres. So I'm doing the drills when I'm swimming, like the sculling and the 636, all of that, but I don't think my swim length, even if I feel like I'm swimming, increasing my length, I'm reaching out trying to lengthen the amount of distance that I cover in a certain time. I'm only 1.54 so...

RUDOLF
When you swim, when you do drills, do you use paddles or not?

CHARMAINE
Well, I have paddles, but I haven't used them.

RUDOLF
So when you use paddles, I know a lot of paddles have got two bands, one for the middle finger and normally one that goes around your wrist. So only put your middle finger through, don't put your wrist through that will force you to have a nice catch with the water. So initially, in the beginning, it's going to feel like your paddles are going to slip off, it might slip off a few times, but that just forces you to have a nice catch in the water as I can show. So if you swim, if you only have the finger paddle in, it will force you to have a catch over there, so you're working on that. So if you put your arm in like that, the pedal will slip off over there if that makes sense. That will force you to keep your elbow, to bend your wrist down, and also your elbow high. And that is where your swim stroke starts with the catch. So if you can increase your catch a little bit that will also really help to make a massive difference because where you put your arm in, and versus where you pull it out, that's where it's going to come out. So if you put your hand in, let's say here by your ear, that means you're gonna have a shorter stroke. If you put it in further in front of you, that means you're gonna have a longer stroke if that makes sense.

CHARMAINE
Yeah, it does.

BRAD
Rudolf, if I can just jump in there. How important is it to track those numbers? And I feel Charmaine's frustration because I feel exactly the same. It's like to try and track heart rate and cadence and SWOLF and are those numbers important to track? Should we be focusing on those sorts of things?

RUDOLF
So the thing is you get a lot of information from your Garmins and whatever heartrate monitors, smartwatches that you get. I know with running you get vertical oscillation, your running ground contact time and all of those things. But for me personally, I just stick to the basics, heart rate and power, when I train and like I said, when you're swimming when you're looking at your SWOLF, I don't really necessarily look at my SWOLF but more in general just count your strokes, how many you do.

So in the beginning of a set, so Charmaine, for example, you're doing 10 200s or 10 300s, count your strokes per length for the first 200, then number five was a 200 and then seven eight or nine, count your strokes over there. And then you can see, listen my strokes have increased or decreased and my times also, if my time were similar. If your times are similar for all the 10 200s but your stroke rate has increased. So let's say for argument's sake, you take 20 strokes for 20 metres - 25 metre pool and then all of a sudden towards the end you take 25 metres ,but your time is the same. That means you're giving five extra strokes, that means it's five extra strokes of energy that you are wasting for swimming at the same speed.

So instead of looking at SWOLF, just as your general, just count your strokes throughout your swimming set, and then you can see, 'listen I need to keep on focusing on increasing my stroke rate, keeping it exactly the same or lengthening my stroke'. That's like a kind of a nice way if you don't have a coach that keeps on telling you every second length 'listen, you're shorting a stroke you're doing this wrong, you're doing this wrong', you're kind of holding yourself accountable for your swimming and that's an easy way to see 'listen I am swimming well' or 'listen I can can this swim set because I'm just shortening my stroke and it's not helping me at all'.

CHARMAINE
Yeah. The other thing is if I do, for instance, three sets of three 200 metres swims. I try to keep my times constant like for instance my time for a 200 metre now is about 4:30 so my best time will be 4:24-25 ish. So with running, I would have gone according to times. For the swimming, I'm counting now and ignoring my time, but the other thing is also that I've heard that when you swim with an Ironman you should work more on your arms and let your legs kind of rest up because the cycle and the run is still ahead.

RUDOLF
The thing with the swimming is you don't need to kick as much as a normal swimmer. So normally a three [***14:27] kick would be perfect. So for every two strokes you take, you give three kicks. You don't have to focus as much for the kicking it's just to keep your balance in the water and also not to drag your feet so, yeah, you don't have to focus so much on kicking per se like having a strong, fast kick but the arms does come more into play with open water swimming as well.

BRAD
Cool and then from the consistency of times, Rudolf, is Charmaine focusing on, is that the right way to do it? To try and keep if you're doing, as she said, three 200s to keep that the same or does it depend on the session you're doing? Would some of them be faster than the others?

RUDOLF
It does depend on your session, if you're doing an easy swim that you're doing focusing on stroke rate and stroke work then rather focus on the stroke rate and the stroke work but if it is more a race pace simulation kind of set then I would focus more on doing the race pace kind of work. So if you, for example the set is 10 one hundreds on race pace, focus to get everyone at the same speed. So just that you know that listen if you go out in the beginning, you swim the first 100 in two minutes and then your time decline to 2:10-15 per 100, and then you know 'listen, either A, I went out too fast so the whole session is a bit of a bust, or listen I need to improve in my endurance or my fitness in a swimming pool'.

But unfortunately with swimming, it's 70% your stroke versus 30% of fitness so you can be as fit as you like but if you've got a bad stroke will always be on the back foot so that's why normally with swimming even though you're doing a race pace set there will still be some stroke works before and afterwards. Just because swimming is such a highly technical sport.

BRAD
Cool, Charmaine, any other questions you've got for Rudolf? How are you coping with obviously the balance? Getting the three disciplines in and having to have a life outside of the sport as well.

CHARMAINE
No, no, I'm coping fine. I'm just on the intermediate programme so it's nothing too hectic. When I try, I doo do it in early mornings, like four o'clock and second training will be past 4pm but I'm missing my running. It feels like we are cycling a lot and swimming twice a week, which is fine I love swimming now. It's only two k's at the moment per training session. But you're putting running on the background, this triathlon people.

RUDOLF
Running is a bit on the background. It's difficult to balance everything, it depends on what background you come from. Since you've got a running background, having done Comrades a few times, that's why you feel that the running is a bit more on the back foot. So you can go to an advanced programme, if you want to, there's just more interval sessions in the programme. But we're currently also looking at the programmes, adjusting it according how results go with athletes-wise to see if the programmes are working or if we need to modify them or not. So you personally feel that the running is a little bit not enough for you at this point in time.

CHARMAINE
Running is my go to. Look I understand the cycle is 180 and the run is only 42 but it's still a marathon.

BRAD
If I can jump there, Charmaine, just in my experience as well and just to give you some background on me personally, I've never finished a Comrades unless I've done an Ironman six to eight weeks before Comrades. So that's always been part of my build up to Comrades. And the interesting thing is, I feel exactly what you're saying is that you do feel like you're running less, particularly coming from a Comrades background where you're doing a lot more mileage, but I used to love it because I used to get into, I would do an Ironman in April, which is essentially your peak Comrades training.

So you'd go April, and then all of a sudden, you don't have to worry about the other two disciplines. So you're not worrying about swimming or biking, when everyone's starting to sort of like really get tied in their Comrades training, I'm only ramping things up. So it does feel a lot less because you used to the Comrades sort of volume, but what it's going to do, and I've never run better in my life than in that sort of window. And it's because of the cross training. So even though you're not running as much as you would ordinarily be used to, the extra swimming and the biking is going to help your fitness massively, but you're also then reducing the risk of getting injured because you're not overtraining on the running side. Am I correct in saying that Rudolf?

RUDOLF
Yeah, so what Brad is saying is basically you're getting advantage of still training cardiovascular wise, but without the impact on your legs, as I know running takes a lot have impact on your legs, especially training for Comrades and so on. So you do have that history of having to run a lot for Comrades and everything. So you're kind of [***19:09] the system a little bit with training running but not actually training running specifically. So especially swimming is very low weight bearing and also I'm sure you noticed swimming works the heart and the lungs a lot. So you still getting that advantage of it.

So like Brad said, after Ironman, you don't have to worry about cycling and swimming anymore. So also you'll feel that your days you've got a lot more hours in your days because you won't train so many hours for Comrades, so then you also feel 'Okay, listen, I have done Ironman 6/7/8 weeks before but still, I'm still feeling fresh mentally because I haven't run hundred plus days a week training for Comrades'. So I understand where you're coming from feeling that running is a bit on the back burner. But also in triathlon, running is the second shortest time wise so 180k's on the bike is a long time to spend on the bike and you don't want to go in your running matches on the bike already. So rather come off the bike feeling fresh, you'll still run better than were you to focus more on the running and less on the bike. If that makes sense.

CHARMAINE
Yeah, it does. It does. The other thing is when I run, according to my coach Brad and Lindsey, I have to stay in certain zones like zone two and I find it very difficult because I run a sub hour 10k and a sub 2 21k and I run a sub 4 marathon and now when I go and run I must say in zone two.

So on Sunday, I'm sorry coach but I just ignored my watch and I just ran an easy pace and when I came back I saw it was zone three and four but I felt relaxed but I did not listen to them or my heartrate and sometimes I think perhaps we should just put the gadgets away and just go with feel because I mean I still, I only ran like 6:30 kilometres and I only did 10k's but it felt easy although my heart rate said something different. So there's a fine line between when I should obey the rules according to my programme and when should I just listen to my body? I don't know.

RUDOLF
How up to date are your zones though, on your Garmin? How did you work out your zones on Garmin? Did you just go with it as it came or did you work it out?

CHARMAINE
No, I actually went on to the web and worked out my zones.

RUDOLF
With what formula did you use? I'm just going to open up Garmin quickly and see.

BRAD
Rudolf, while you are doing that, Charmaine, one of the things with those zones, we actually had a long chat this morning, Markus and I were doing a similar call for the RUN podcast and someone was saying the same thing that their runs feel like they're easy, but they are in the slightly higher zone.

So one of the reasons or one of the things we found, particularly in like Comrades runners as an example, is all of their training runs are exactly the same pace, there's no variation in their training. If they're doing a long run, it's slow, if they're doing their midweek runs, it's slow. Every now and again they might pop a time trial in and that sort of thing which is at a slightly higher intensity. But those long runs, and that's where most recreational runners are making the mistake, is they're not doing enough of their easy runs easy. So because they're running the easy runs harder than what they should be, they aren't able to hit the numbers that they should be hitting in the high intensity sessions, like the the speed sessions or the hill repeats and that sort of thing. And that's where the gains really come so because they are almost in that no man's land in between, and that's where the term junk miles comes in, you're running just for the sake of running, as opposed to really slowing it down because you are getting benefit, even though it doesn't feel like it, you are getting massive benefit running easy in zone two and then it allows you to run the harder ones a lot harder than you would ordinarily because you're not fatigued.

CHARMAINE
Yeah, to me it feels like if I run too slow then it's junk miles.

RUDOLF
So where that comes into play is if you do your easy runs too hard and then you can't be able to do your hard runs hard. So you're kind of just in a grey zone, so you're kind of just plateauing in that zone. So you want your easy runs to be over here easy and your hard runs to be over there, so you don't want to kind of close the gap between the two so your easy runs are like medium-easy and your hard runs are like medium-hardish. So that's why there's a huge difference in between the two zones. So even if you feel like 'listen, I'm running easy, I feel like I'm wasting my time'.

Sometimes you just need to listen to the coach and say 'listen, I trust you guys, you know what you're doing so even for me it feels like it's not hundred percent there, maybe we can talk and do a test so we can readjust my zone or something like that'. Something like that can be beneficial as you train and you progress. You can't keep the zones the same for 12 weeks because you're getting fitter and stronger and so on. So you also need to say 'listen, let's do a test, let's update my zones' and I know some of the Garmins do have that as you go at a high intensity for 20 minutes straight, it updates your VO2 Max and heart rate zones and everything like that.

So some of the Garmins do do that automatically so it's also just your homework to double check like once every two weeks 'listen are my zones the same Yes or No? I'm feeling like this is really, really easy'. So for example, if you start running 6:30/km and your heart rate drops by 10 beats, 15 beats and you know it's time to readjust my zones, let's talk to the coaches say 'Listen, I feel like this is going way, way too easy. Can we do a little test to see, increase my zones, do like a time trial to see what your max heart rate zone is and so on' and then we can adjust your zones, adjust your training programme and take it from there.

CHARMAINE
Okay, this is interesting I think I should perhaps just go and triple check if my zones are right, because on the indoor cycle, my indoor spinning bike, I actually struggle to cycle hard enough or fast enough to get to the next zone. It just keeps saying easy or warm up. Whereas with the run, I struggled to run slower to stay in zone 2. But yeah, maybe I must just go and see if I can adjust it.

RUDOLF
When you run, so do you link different profiles, the cycling and running profiles, when you cycle and when you run because I know when you cycle your heart rate tends to be lower then when you run. So what Garmin device do you have?

CHARMAINE
I have the 735.

RUDOLF
Okay. So, so when you cycle indoor, you go on the cycle profile with the Garmin.

CHARMAINE
Yes, indoor, yes.

RUDOLF
Okay, then it should still be able to switch in between your cycling heart rate and this is your running heart rate so it should give you the different values but when you're done, just go double check on the, because I can see on the Garmin site here there is a running thing and you can choose between percentages of max heart rates, which is the method that is the most common and familiar, using a maximum heart rate it gives you your zones, but with your heart rate it gives you your resting heart rate as well am I right?

So if I were you I would use that one because then you use your maximum heart rate minus your heartrate rest and give you your heart rate preserve. So if you use that formula it might be more accurate because your resting heart rate, your watch doe give you your resting heart rates. You take that in the morning, when you wake up, you see okay at night, my heart rate was X amount, I know what my max amount is so you just change your values and see if it has an impact on your zones. But then, also, if you choose a method now, keep to it. So at least it's consistent. So even if it is a little bit inaccurate, it's consistently inaccurate if that makes sense.

CHARMAINE
Yes it does make sense. Yeah, I follow my resting heartrate because obviously if it drops a bit I can see I'm getting fitter, although my wife, she's saying that my VO2 actually dropped within the last three weeks and I've really been training hard so maybe there's something wrong because it's supposed to go up.

RUDOLF
Also VO2 max, that's an indirect measurement of VO2 max. The only real way you can measure VO2 max is when you go into a lab and you put a mask on and measure it like that. So that's an indirect measurement, because also are you in a base kind of training now if I'm not mistaken? Am I right?

CHARMAINE
Yeah, look, I'm on the Olympic programme just for 5150. So this is all just really prepping me for 70.3 which we will then do full Ironman. I'm so glad the dates came out now because Ironman is 29 March and Comrades is 20 June so I think six or seven or eight weeks. Okay, but anyway yes.

RUDOLF
Ironman normally is in April, so it's a little bit earlier this year.

BRAD
Yeah, but it works out perfectly, Charmaine. And you can almost in your Comrades training, you can almost use Ironman as your ultra. So where you would be doing a Two Oceans or if you're doing a Loskop. I never ran ultras, Ironman was my Ultra. And even though it's slightly longer, you bounce back a lot quicker from an Ironman. For me personally, being a big guy, I bounce back from an Ironman a lot quicker than I do from an ultramarathon. So yeah, the timing is perfect. It's all good.

CHARMAINE
I'm really excited to hear this Brad, because I'm so scared of doing Ironman and missing out on Comrades again. But I'm very excited that you say, you know, you bounce back quickly, and you always do well. So now I am even more excited.

BRAD
Charmaine, for me, the big thing is that like I said, the time after Ironman, where everyone's ramping up, you then are only training 1 discipline, you're not training three anymore. I mean, you can still use it as cross training. But I by the time Ironman comes along, I'm so gatvol of swimming and cycling, that I just want to run. And then it's cool because you almost feel like you're slacking even though you're doing a lot more mileage than you were in your Ironman training, because you're only training one discipline, it feels like you're on holiday. And I'm telling you now, you'll come out of that Ironman seriously fit because you've done the cardiovascular stuff on the bike and the swim.

And yeah, if you're sensible in those two months leading into Comrades, I'm willing to put money on it you'll almost have your best Comrades you'll ever have. Unless you really smash Ironman as hard as you can, then the recovery time is going to be a lot longer. But if it's a case of just going ther to experience Ironman and you're going to finish and then you're going to go on and run Comrades, you will have phenomenal Comrades. I'll tell you that now.

CHARMAINE
Wonderful.

BRAD
Have you got any other questions?

CHARMAINE
No, no, I'm fine. I've learned so much. Thank you.

BRAD
You're most welcome. And we love having you in the community as well. You ask such great questions in the forums which is cool. Your experience of that Coach Parry Training Club, you haven't been with us that long. But you've experienced it and you're seeing how it works. How have you found it?

CHARMAINE
Look, I don't know how I used to do triathlons without Coach Parry's training, oh my goodness. Now I've learnt so much about even something so simple, it doesn't feel like I'm really training very hard. And I am. I'm training eight times a week, only six days a week. So if I look at my blocks, and I turned them green, which is lovely, I can see yes, I trained very hard this week but it doesn't feel like that.

Because I think you guys kind of, this is a hard day and then it's swimming which is not so hard. And then you get strength training for your legs. And then you get to have an easy run again. So I love the programme. And I'm only on intermediate, I was thinking perhaps I should go to advanced.

But I love the forum also, I've never asked a question on there that hasn't been answered within a day or so. And I'm more than one person answering and it's just lovely. Know what, I don't feel in the dark. I feel like everything is at my fingertips. I can ask anything, I can even change my programme the way it suits me, like now we're going to ride Suikerbosrand on Thursday, some switching everything with the blocks. It's wonderful. It's also, it's very technologically improved. It is stunning. I love it. I don't think I can leave you guys again.

BRAD
That's awesome. We love hearing that. So yeah, thank you very much. We love having you on, like I said, and we can't wait to see how you go, obviously 5150. And then looking ahead to 70.3 Ironman and then Comrade next year. Best of luck, and yeah, I'm sure we're going to be chatting lots in the forums and on the Q&A calls but yeah, thanks for taking the time to chat to us today.

CHARMAINE
Thank you for all the questions and all the answers and all the help. And thank you for having me, it was lovely. Thank you.

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